2025 Berkshire Hathaway shareholders meeting Q&A live stream: Buffett discusses trade, Japan, and cash deployment.

The annual event of the investment community, the Berkshire Hathaway shareholders meeting, kicked off on May 2nd, and the Q&A session started on the evening of May 3rd at 9 p.m. Beijing time. "Stock God" Buffett confirmed his full participation, along with his CEO successor, Greg Abel, who is in charge of Berkshire's non-insurance businesses, and the insurance business head Ajit Jain, to collectively answer shareholders' questions. This year marks the 60th anniversary of Buffett's acquisition of Berkshire Hathaway and may be the beginning of the end of the "Buffett era" at Berkshire. In the 2024 annual shareholder letter released in February, Buffett admitted that Abel would take over "before long". The total duration of this year's Q&A session at the shareholders meeting was reduced by about an hour compared to last year, shortened to four and a half hours, possibly to accommodate Buffett's advanced age. This year's shareholders meeting is considered the most important in history, likely to be Buffett's last full participation in a shareholders meeting. Investors need to prepare for a Berkshire Hathaway without Buffett at the helm. Compared to previous years, investors will treasure the opportunity to hear Buffett share his investment philosophy and experiences on the Berkshire platform for what may be the last time. They may pay more attention to the "handover" plan of the Berkshire management team, Abel's future role and strategic direction at the company as Buffett's successor, and the roadmap for Berkshire's development outlined by Buffett. At a time when the Trump administration is provoking trade wars, investors are more concerned about how Buffett views the impact of tariffs on Berkshire's various businesses and the economic outlook in the United States. The first-quarter financial report released earlier this Saturday showed that Berkshire's cash reserves reached a record high of $347.7 billion for the quarter. Given the high uncertainty caused by tariffs, investors would like to know how Berkshire will utilize its massive cash reserves, such as for new acquisitions or share buybacks; whether Buffett will adjust his commitment to major investments in U.S. stocks, especially tariff-sensitive heavyweights like Apple, and if there is a possibility of selling, what are the reasons; they are also concerned about Berkshire's positioning in overseas markets like China and Japan. As with the live coverage of last year's shareholder meeting Q&A, Wall Street Journal will also be providing real-time updates on the highlights of the Berkshire shareholders meeting, listed in reverse chronological order, with the latest updates at the top. Below are the key points from the 2025 Berkshire Hathaway shareholders meeting. 00:05 Shareholders meeting 18th question: What kind of impression do you hope to leave on the world? Before the start of the second half of the Q&A session, Buffett recommended a documentary about the late Katherine Graham, the publisher of the Washington Post, called "Becoming Katherine Graham". One shareholder asked how Abel would like people to remember him. He stated that his roles as a father and coach were very important to him. Buffett joked that he hoped people would remember him for being "old," eliciting laughter from the audience. 23:09 Shareholders meeting 17th question: Self-driving cars Someone asked about the lack of widespread adoption of self-driving cars in the United States. If it does become a reality in the future, how will Geico's insurance business be affected? How do you view the responsibility division, software issues, and broader changes brought about by self-driving cars? Jain, in charge of the insurance business, replied that from an insurance perspective, self-driving cars would not immediately bring about fundamental changes. Currently, most car insurance premiums are based on the frequency of driver errors, and our policies and claims systems operate according to this risk calculation method. Jain said that self-driving technology could indeed reduce the likelihood of accidents, a view shared by Geico and other insurance companies. But once this technology becomes widespread, we will make corresponding adjustments. Buffett remarked, "This reminds me of what Charlie Munger once said to me. When we decided to enter the textile industry, we could not anticipate the future transformation of the entire industry. The world is constantly changing. Just like in baseball or golf, not every swing can hit a home run, and not every stroke can land in the hole. You have to accept the fact that you will make mistakes. Today we talk about whether the car insurance industry will be changed, which is a very important question. But for now, self-driving cars have not been fully commercialized, and the United States has not yet made large-scale pushes. No one can accurately predict what the insurance industry will look like in the next hundred years. One thing is clear: the world is dynamic. People like driving, and we don't want to destroy that. We have learned how to better protect the earth, although it has been a difficult road. We know that eight countries globally have a significant impact on the development of all mankind, and we hope these countries have the best leaders. Einstein published the theory of relativity in 1905, which also led to research into the conversion of energy into powerful forces, but ultimately led us to face the threat posed by nuclear weapons. I have witnessed these consequences since my birth in 1930. Even Einstein could not foresee how these inventions would ultimately change the world. We have also seen the development of North Korea, and no one can truly predict what they will do next. These uncertainties will not disappear quickly. Nevertheless, change has brought many benefits, making our lives much better today than 100 years ago. But we still have to face realities like weapons of mass destruction. Regarding the product liability and unexpected accidents caused by self-driving cars, there are still many terms that need to be clarified. Once an accident occurs, due to technological upgrades, repair costs will significantly increase. Cars today are getting more and morerbrakk autonomous driving, we're still pretty early in that change compared to the impact the textile industry had back then. This should be one of the "luckiest" periods in human history, you should enjoy life, and also pay attention to the changes happening in the insurance industry. We're doing well in the insurance industry. While it has many structural issues, we can't control everything. If you don't know how to swing a club, don't play golf. Regarding the product liability and unexpected accidents caused by self-driving cars, there are indeed many terms that need to be clarified. Once an accident occurs, due to technological upgrades, repair costs will significantly increase. Cars today are getting more and more autonomous driving features, we're still pretty early in that change compared to the impact the textile industry had back then. This should be one of the "luckiest" periods in human history, you should enjoy life, and also pay attention to the changes happening in the insurance industry. We're doing well in the insurance industry. While it has many structural issues, we can't control everything. If you don't know how to swing a club, don't play golf.The more it resembles a high-tech product, and these new issues related to technology have not been completely resolved.When I first went to Geico in 1950, the average annual premium was about $40, depending on which state you lived in. But now, $2000 a year is the norm. However, at the same time, the number of traffic accident deaths has dropped significantly. If you look at it from a different perspective, driving now is actually much safer than before. The future trend of the entire industry is difficult to predict. You must consider research, reality, and various data. Changes in the energy industry, healthcare, and political environment could also lead to adjustments in the industry structure. In the business world, many issues do not have "answers," only "action points." The rules of the game today are completely different from the past, so you have to rethink how to run your industry every day when you wake up. Some additional explanations about Berkshire's first quarter financial report: The performance of our insurance sector declined significantly in the first quarter of this year. It was very strong last year, but this year it is under pressure due to price declines and increased risks. Some of our achievements cannot be replicated, and we do not recommend others to replicate our model. We do have some advantages. Our investment income has not changed much because we do not make many overall mistakes. We expect total investments of around $40 billion this year, although overall returns will be slightly lower, the negatives will also be fewer than in the past. The railroad business has grown slightly compared to last year, with some issues being addressed, and it remains a high-quality asset for Berkshire. The problems in the energy sector have been mostly resolved, and this year's returns have also improved. Other businesses require more effort from us. We have done a lot of calculations, some have grown, some have declined, but overall it is not bad. As for cash flow, please be patient. Munger once told me, As long as you have patience, willing to read financial reports every day, and listen to speeches from political figures, you will find very good opportunities. We currently have ample cash flow, and as long as the businesses we underwrite can bring profits, this cash will come in handy. In the next 50 or 100 years, we may make significant investments. Of course, difficult years will also come, and that's when these cash reserves will be particularly important. Currently, the reserve fund for the life insurance section is -2.2%. If you are not prepared to face the future, you are likely to run into trouble. Operating a business requires a different mindset to think about problems. We have not made any acquisitions this year. If you buy Berkshire stocks, you will also receive a fair share. About a year ago, a new tax law was enacted that taxes buybacks at 1%. This is more damaging to us than to other companies. Like Apple, which has performed well this year, and spent $100 billion on buybacks. The tax they paid on these buybacks is also significant. The prices they bought back are even higher than the prices you bought them at - which is good news. Nowadays, everyone is looking for ways to increase their chances of success, but I want to emphasize: you must read seriously. Without deep reading, you cannot make wise decisions. If there are major changes in the future, our company will still adhere to a conservative and cautious investment strategy. Although we have done some buybacks, the tax burden is not negligible. At 23:03, the 16th question of the shareholder meeting: How to deal with setbacks in life A shareholder from Shanghai, China, sought advice on how to deal with setbacks in life. Buffett said, "I focus on the good things, not the bad things. Life can be wonderful, but it can also be filled with setbacks." At 22:59, the 15th question of the shareholder meeting: Did the recent market turmoil provide investment opportunities Asked whether recent market fluctuations provided significant investment opportunities, Buffett played down the recent market volatility, saying "really nothing," and it's part of investing. He dismissed the stock market volatility in recent weeks that made investors uneasy. Buffett said, "What's happened over the last 30 days, 45 days, 100 days... isn't really much." Buffett pointed out that in the past 60 years, Berkshire Hathaway's stock price has dropped by 50% less than three times. During this time, the company had no fundamental problems. In the past 60 years, Berkshire Hathaway's stock price has dropped by 50% less than three times. He noted that during this period, the company had no fundamental problems. Therefore, compared to periods like the stock market crash of 1929, Buffett believes that the recent movements in the US stock market are "not major swings", "it's not a severe bear market, nor something similar." Buffett recalled that on his birthday in 1930, August 30, 1930, the Dow was at 240 points, later dropping to 41 points. Despite experiencing some "hair-raising" events, the Dow closed this Friday above 41,300 points. For those worried about the cyclical fluctuations in their investment portfolios, Buffett advised: they should change their investment philosophy to adapt to the world, rather than expecting the world to adapt to them. Buffett said, "If it's important to you whether your stocks fall by 15%, then you need to change your investment philosophy. The world won't adapt to you, you have to adapt to the world." He added, "People have emotions. But you must control your emotions when investing." At 22:50:00, the 14th question of the shareholder meeting: Investing for young people The questioner was a young girl. She said she was just starting to learn about investing and wanted to hear Buffett's opinion. What lessons did he learn in the early stages of investing? Buffett said, "This is a very good question. I really wish that when I was young, someone could give me this kind of advice." This is closely related to the people around you. Do not expect every decision you make to be correct. If your life has a direction, then you must strive to make the people you respect and aspire to be your friends. I just mentioned a few people who I have worked with in the past, maybe they have not done things on the same scale as me, but they are people I really like, and being with them means a lot to me. Walking life's path with like-minded people is very valuable. UnfortunatelyYou often dont truly realize these principles until the latter part of your life. When you get older, you will understand that these are the truly important things.Warren Buffett mentioned two former Berkshire directors, Tom Murphy and Walter Scott. He said that if you have people like Tom Murphy and Walter Scott around you, your life will definitely be better. But this doesn't mean you should follow wealthy people or replicate their lifestyles. I would advise you to approach those who are truly smart and wise, learn from them, seek their advice, and try to work with them. If you are looking for a meaningful job and are not in a hurry to make money, I would recommend you to spend time with excellent people like Charlie Munger. Find opportunities to share their success; if you can't find them, it's okay, just continue doing what you are doing and keep working hard. Persist, and you will eventually find people who live and think as seriously as you do. Buffett recalled, the first time I went to Geico, the door was locked, and I didn't know who was behind the door. Ten minutes later, I met that person, and he had a significant impact on my life. When you meet such people, remember their help to you, and think about how you can repay them and help them. Never forget these benefactors. Of course, sometimes you may encounter less than ideal situations. But if you are really lucky to live in a good environment surrounded by great people, cherish it. You don't need to feel guilty for being fortunate. With 8 billion people in the world and only over 300 million in the United States, if you live here, you are already in a leading position in this game, so make good use of it. If someone at work asks you to do something you don't want to do, don't be with them. Different industries have different standards for people's choices, but if you find a direction that excites you, strive to pursue it, especially if it is a career you have always wanted to pursue. The investment industry is very interesting, and many people are unwilling to continue after making their first fortune. But I have been fortunate to see its long-term charm from the beginning. Like Tom Murphy, who lived to be 98 years old, he had the ability to see the potential in others. We have not yet met another person like him who can so keenly identify talent. If you want to become a better person, strive to find people like him and work with them. There are many successful people in the world, but not everyone makes the right choices. The quickest path to success is to find truly outstanding people and walk with them. The experience of Berkshire Hathaway is also valuable to me. Sandy Gottesman managed our assets from 1963 until a few years before his passing, as well as Walter Scott and Abel, all of whom embody long-term success. You can learn many valuable things from them. This is the advice I can offer you. Some people live long, maybe because they are surrounded by good people, or maybe because they drink cola every day (laughs). But I believe that happy and joyful people live longer because they are always doing what they truly love. 22:45 Shareholder meeting 13th question: Private equity competition in the insurance industry Someone asked, private equity firms like Blackstone, Apollo, and KKR are expanding in the insurance sector, these companies are more aggressive, what do you think? Ajian admitted that competition from private equity made Berkshire's investments in the insurance business more challenging. "There is no doubt that private equity firms have entered this field, and we have lost competitiveness in this area. We have participated a lot in this area in the past, but in the past three to four years, I think we have not completed a single transaction." However, Ajian pointed out that the private equity model involves higher leverage and more aggressive investment strategies. When the economy performs well, private equity firms take on certain risks in leverage and credit risk, especially in the life insurance sector. "As long as the economy is good and credit spreads are low, they will make a lot of money." Ajian said, however, there is always such a risk: at some point, regulators may be dissatisfied and say that the risks you represent to the policyholders are too high, which could ultimately end tragically. "We do not like the risk-return ratios in these scenarios, so we choose to raise the white flag and decide not to compete with private equity firms in the life insurance field." Buffett stated that many companies try to emulate Berkshire's model, but their CEOs do not invest all of their assets into the company like we do. Buffett added that the difference between Berkshire and its competitors is that he personally takes on greater personal responsibility for investing. He said: "Their sense of trust and responsibility for what they do may be somewhat different from ours, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and if it doesn't work, they turn to other things. But if what we do at Berkshire doesn't work, I will regret everything I have created for the rest of my life, so it's a completely different personal relationship. In the property and casualty insurance field, no company can truly replicate Berkshire's model." 22:41 Shareholder meeting 12th question: Mongolia The questioner mentioned that Mongolia is an emerging market located between China and Russia. We have animal husbandry and mining industries, and the economy is continuing to grow. We held a Mongolian Investor Conference in New York last year, attracting many interested investors. How does Buffett view emerging markets like Mongolia? Is there a long-term investment plan? Buffett said, I remember about twenty years ago, I attended a meeting where I started paying attention to Mongolia and heard introductions about Mongolia, so I still have some understanding of the situation in Mongolia that was a long time ago. Now we listen to reports from the government and evaluate which business opportunities can actually be developed. But we don't invest overseas lightly unless I believe it is a genuinely huge potential opportunity. Many people believe that to make money, you have to go to places with high inflation, where you can earn a lot of money, but I don't see it that way.Currently, our company does not have any short-term investment plans in Mongolia, unless it is a project that is very attractive in scale.Maybe twenty years ago we would have considered going to take a look. But I don't know much about your economy, such as livestock and mining industries. That's my current opinion. 22:31 Shareholders' meeting 11th question: US dollar depreciation and currency risk Someone asked about the weakening of the US dollar and currency risk. In responding to how to reduce exposure to US dollar depreciation risk, Buffett stated that his company will not invest in "worthless" currencies. "We don't want to hold any currency that we think will depreciate." Buffett also mentioned an increase in holdings of the Japanese yen. He did not rule out the possibility of exploring and focusing on other currencies in the future. Buffett also emphasized the complexity of currency games, pointing out that one of the government's responsibilities is to devalue its own currency. Buffett stated that no actions would be taken specifically to manage currency risk based on quarterly or annual returns. It is very difficult to establish an effective balancing mechanism in the currency value system. In addition, Buffett expressed fear about the US government's fiscal policy. "I briefly mentioned in the annual report that fiscal policy is the issue that worries me the most in the United States, because of the way it is formulated." He said, "All the motives are driving some behaviors that could, and indeed do, cause trouble on currency issues. But this is not limited to the United States, it is the case in many places globally. In some places, this situation often gets out of control." Buffett referred to the late Vice Chairman Charlie Munger saying, "Charlie always believed that if he had to choose an investment field outside of stocks, he felt he could make a lot of money in the foreign exchange market." Buffett stated, "We tried it once. Can't say we won't do it again, but it's unlikely. Unless something happens in the US that makes us willing to hold a large amount of other countries' currencies." 22:22 Shareholders' meeting 10th question: Why consider Abel as a suitable successor Buffett did not directly answer this question. He stated that it is important to work with talented individuals who are enjoyable to work with. Abel stated that he is honored to be involved in Berkshire Hathaway's work. 22:13 Shareholders' meeting 9th question: Geico, an auto insurance company Jain said that Geico did indeed face a crisis, but we turned the crisis into an opportunity. When we initially took over, there were two major problems: the first was our pricing structure was not rational, and the second was systemic issues in our actuarial and pricing mechanisms. Five or six years ago, these were our areas of concern. Through rapid technical adjustments and process optimization, these issues have now been resolved. We have not only improved our pricing model, but also done a lot of work on risk matching and optimization of the overall pricing system. Today's Geico is able to price for everyone based on their comprehensive risk level, and we excel in this area, which has translated into substantial profits. Although we have achieved a lot, I do not think the job is done. We still have a lot of technology we can leverage, such as AI and other new tools. Our goal is not to "catch up" but to "do better." Buffett said this is a very interesting case study, especially on how a company handles changes in industry rules. Every business has its own challenges and opportunities. Berkshire invested $50 million in Geico in the 1970s, initially only a partial stake. Later, Geico brought us huge profits, and now we own 100% of the company, with profits reaching $2 billion in just one quarter. But this is the result of decades of continuous investment and improvement. 100 years ago, auto insurance was almost non-existent; but now, besides property and casualty insurance, auto insurance has become one of the largest insurance types. Geico's profits are very substantial, with liquid cash of up to $29 billion. It was a very cost-effective investment when I bought the company for $50 million. Geico was founded in 1936 by a government employee who used to work for USAA. He made a profit in the first year, made more money in the second year, and then the company grew and successfully went public. This was the beginning of the rise of the auto insurance industry. No one likes to buy insurance, but everyone likes to drive, making auto insurance a necessity. Geico's development story is very interesting, having tripled its growth in a few years, although it veered off course at one point, it eventually got back on track. We almost talk about Geico's issues every year at the annual meeting. Buffett specifically mentioned Berkshire's investment manager Todd Combs. He said Combs did a great job in this transformation. He successfully turned around this subsidiary. What was once seen as a disadvantage, telematics, is no longer a competitive disadvantage. Combs also significantly streamlined the company's workforce, cutting thousands of positions, which played an important role in improving efficiency. 22:04 Shareholders' meeting 8th question: Investment opportunities, when is it acceptable to break principles Someone asked if impatience can sometimes be shown in investments, breaking the patience principle? Buffett said that sometimes you have to act quickly. Berkshire has made a lot of money by being willing to act quickly. You don't want to be patient with meaningful transactions. Buffett said, "When a good opportunity arises, you should not be patient at that time. You should be patient waiting for those occasional opportunities. But for reasonable deals, you should not hesitate. You should not endure listening to talk that will never happen." 22:00 Shareholders' meeting 7th question: The US seems to be undergoing huge changes, should we be optimistic or pessimistic about it The questioner referred to Buffett always being very confident in the long-term advantages of the US, but today the US seems to be undergoing unprecedented and close to "revolutionary" changes. As an investor, how do you evaluate the current situation, should you remain optimistic or pessimistic? In response to this question, Buffett answered that the questioner is a new generation of investors. In (Continued in next message)In Berkshire's managers' annual report, you usually can't see comments on these macro-level issues. But he can say that the United States will not undergo the kind of drastic "revolutionary" change.Buffett stated that the United States was once an agricultural country, but society has changed and the economy has performed very well. In the past, it was a male-dominated era, but later there were fair reforms and constitutional amendments, giving women the same opportunities. Buffett said that from 1920 to now, from 1776 to now, we have done a lot and it has taken a long time. I was born in the United States, where almost everything happened at that time, but it's different now. I am very fortunate as a male born in the United States - it's not easy, but America has changed. From 1930 to now, we have experienced many things, such as the Great Depression, two World Wars, and the tension brought by the atomic bomb. These are the experiences we have gone through. We are a very fortunate country, and I am a very fortunate person. I think being born in the United States is much luckier than being born elsewhere. 21:52 Shareholder meeting sixth question: Why did Berkshire invest in the hot dog company Portillo's Someone asked why Berkshire acquired the Chicago hot dog chain Portillo's, and Buffett answered that he didn't know much about Portillo's. He joked that maybe someone else made the investment. Buffett then told a story about Jay Pritzker. Jay, a relative of Illinois Governor JB Pritzker, bought a chocolate company in Brooklyn decades ago. Buffett called Jay a very outstanding manager. Abel clarified that Berkshire does not own Portillo's. In fact, the company is owned by an investment company with a name similar to Berkshire. 21:49 Shareholder meeting fifth question: The impact of AI on insurance This question was first answered by Jain, head of Berkshire's insurance business. Jain said that AI will be a tool to change industry rules and can be used to assess risks. People have spent a lot of time and money on AI, but Berkshire will not be the first to adopt AI in the industry. Buffett added that Jain will decide on Berkshire's insurance business for the next ten years. The decision to use AI will be made by Jain. 21:43 Shareholder meeting fourth question: Challenges of investing in real estate in a global uncertain environment Asked about the challenges of investing in real estate in the current global uncertain environment, Buffett said that real estate investment is more complex and difficult than investing in stocks. Communication, negotiation, and bargaining involve many people and links, such as who is the owner, legal structure, funding arrangements, etc. It is really not easy to negotiate and get a good price in real estate transactions, with so many variables. If you choose to invest in stocks, there is a huge advantage: you can see countless opportunities every second, especially in the US market. In contrast, real estate transactions are slow and highly dependent on personal communication and negotiation. Real estate investment can be done by an individual or a team. On the NYSE, billions of dollars are traded every day, with thousands of unknown investors participating in market activities. All you need is a good price, and you can trade 20,000 shares of Berkshire stock in 5 seconds. But real estate is not like that. To complete a real estate transaction, there are many factors to consider and coordinate, even if the transaction size is large today, once it enters the negotiation phase, many factors need to be weighed and coordinated. Buffett said Berkshire has also invested in real estate, such as during the financial crisis in 2008 and 2009. He advised: if you want to invest in real estate, you must compare and choose in a smarter and more strategic way. 21:35 Shareholder meeting third question: Deployment of Berkshire's huge cash reserves When asked about Berkshire's huge cash reserves, Buffett joked that he stopped investing not to make Greg Abel look good in the future. Buffett said he has been looking for investment opportunities and this company is "very opportunistic." He hopes to reduce his cash on hand, possibly to $50 billion. He said, "There are occasionally very tempting opportunities. But not every day." 21:26 Shareholder meeting second question: Japan Buffett said that investing in Japan completely fits Berkshire's investment philosophy. The five Japanese trading companies that Berkshire invests in have performed very well in the past, and he plans to continue holding their stocks for fifty to sixty years and hopes to build long-term and deep partnerships with them. Buffett said these trading companies have different cultures, habits, and ways of doing business than us, but that is why we value this cooperation even more. Buffett said Berkshire currently has no plans to sell the stocks of these Japanese trading companies in the short term. Their current operations are very successful, even though he is already 94 years old. Berkshire also plans to expand cooperation further. Buffett said that Berkshire's current investment in Japan has reached $20 billion, and he even wishes that they had invested $100 billion instead of $20 billion. 21:21 Shareholder meeting first question: Trade Buffett specifically addressed the trade issue. He stated that trade should not be used as a weapon. The United States has gone from having nothing to being an extremely important country. The more trade, the better. We (the United States) should seek to trade with other countries in the world. Buffett said in response to a question about trade barriers, "You can present some very good arguments for balanced trade being beneficial to the world. There is no question that trade can become a warlike act." Buffett's remarks received applause from those present. 21:00 Opening remarks for the 2025 shareholder meeting Q&A section The shareholder meeting has begun. Buffett stated at the opening of the meeting that this is my sixtieth shareholder meeting. The audience applauded. Buffett introduced that this year, 19,700 people are attending the shareholder meeting in person, setting a record for the highest number of attendees. At the shareholder meeting, the sales of Sees Candies have reached $31.7One million dollars. The sales of Brooks running shoes amounted to 310,000 dollars, while Jazwares sold 250,000 dollars worth of toys and other products.Buffett introduced that the conference limited edition book commemorating the 60th anniversary of Berkshire Hathaway's acquisition is now on sale. This is the only book sold by the official bookstore Bookworm this year. Berkshire Hathaway printed about 8000 books, about 3000 more than originally planned, and has sold about 4000 books at the conference venue. This article is reprinted from "Wall Street News", by Li Dan; GMTEight editor: Liu Xuan.